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1 Destro  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:45:44am

I had a brain orgasm reading this. Thank you.

2 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 8:48:08am

re: #1 Destro

I had a brain orgasm reading this. Thank you.

Best kind!

3 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:05:11am

His denial of race as a factor, a tool, and a reality in everything he talks about is racism of the most ignorant, or if not ignorant then deliberately deceitful, kind.

4 Destro  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 9:59:05am

re: #3 wrenchwench

His denial of race as a factor, a tool, and a reality in everything he talks about is racism of the most ignorant, or if not ignorant then deliberately deceitful, kind.

It's a good criticism. But it is a historic fact poor whites are treated slightly better than blacks in the Southern socio-economic system.

As the article states:

The Southern system is essentially about class and only incidentally about race. That is why, following the abolition of slavery, the Southern landlord elite exploited black and white tenant farmers and child workers indifferently. Immigrant workers without rights to vote or organize unions have always appealed to the Southern employer elite. After the Civil War some Southern landlords experimented with bringing in indentured servants or “coolies” from Asia, until that form of unfree labor was banned by Congress in the 1880s. Today many business-class conservatives from Texas and other Southern states such as former Texas Senator Phil Gramm champion “guest-worker programs” which would bring in Mexican nationals and others to work as indentured servants in the South, while forbidding them to become U.S. citizens with legal and voting rights.

5 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:05:56am

I never thought of the "guest-worker" program being used in that way. I just thought I'd be a "green card" type of thing. Which has it's own set of exploitations I know.

Still Constitutional Rights would apply --no? No voting rights, but legal rights, yes.

6 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:32:12am

re: #4 Destro

It's a good criticism. But it is a historic fact poor whites are treated slightly better than blacks in the Southern socio-economic system.

That's part of how race is used as a tool to control workers. Divide and conquer. If there's solidarity across all races, it would be, as Lind asserts, essentially about class. In a way, it is essentially about class, but to deny the centrality of race as a tool in the class system is wrong, especially in a discussion of the southern US. Makes me think Lind has his own agenda on the issues.

7 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 10:39:21am

re: #5 ggt

I never thought of the "guest-worker" program being used in that way. I just thought I'd be a "green card" type of thing. Which has it's own set of exploitations I know.

Still Constitutional Rights would apply --no? No voting rights, but legal rights, yes.

I read a Libertarian perspective on immigration in Reason Magazine once. The guy who wrote it, whose name I don't recall, favored totally free immigration, but with a two-tier system for legal status, meaning immigrants could not become citizens. He said, "For some reason, Americans seem to have a problem with this." Which I do. The possibility of immigrants becoming citizens here is what makes this country great. You have to be heartless to think it would be a good plan to have people to spend their working years here and then send them back where they came from. And to have them spend their working years here without a say in governance is a very undemocratic way of thinking. And makes those people more easily exploited. I could go on about why it's a bad idea...

8 Destro  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 11:58:52am

re: #6 wrenchwench

I can't disagree with anything you said in critique of this article.

There was a great book awhile back that had opened my eyes titled:

How the Irish Became White

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

With that in mind, I found a quote from Benjamin Franklin where he called Penn. Germans "swarthy" compared to the white Anglo-Saxons.

So in America, racism has an economic element to it that blurs the line between colors, races, ethnicities below the upper classes.

9 Destro  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:31:59pm

re: #5 ggt

There is a scary possibility these reality challenged GOP fanatics will be in charge of our lives for the next 4 to 8 years.

And as the demographic for these white southern conservatives in the GOP base diminishes the GOP will become even more devious in eliminating Americans from the eligible voting rolls to the point they will try and re-implament new Jim Crow like laws (I am not going too far is saying that because Senator Rand Paul and many mainstream conservatives openly rebuke the 1964 Civil Rights Act) and Democrats seem to me to unable to fight back easily when the GOP goes crazy on them because the Dems fear losing the white suburbian semi-biggoted vote.

A GOP in power again will do all it can to remain in power while transforming America into an oligarchy. Once America is an oligarchy and the American worker is so dependent on the oligarchs of their meager jobs they dare not rock the boat we will be on our way to a banana republic.

I know, sounds far fetched, but I see this scenario at the edge of the horizon.

10 John Vreeland  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 1:44:03pm

re: #8 Destro

I found a quote from Benjamin Franklin where he called Penn. Germans "swarthy" compared to the white Anglo-Saxons.

I have always found this comment bizarre. It would be difficult to find cultures more closely related genetically than the English and Germans. The English are Germans, as even Herr Hitler understood. The Angles who gave them their name subjugated the highly populated lowlands along with Saxons and Frijians and drove the native Celts into the fringes.

11 dragonath  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 2:24:25pm

Benjamin Franklin was making bad jokes at the expense of the Indians, so he always had a little of that thing going on.

The funny thing is that even though the Celtic culture was massively submerged on the British Isles, the Brits are still very much of Celt ancestry. And God forbid, what would a bunch of British subjects think of Ireland in the early 1770s?

12 Destro  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 2:36:53pm

re: #10 John Vreeland

re: #11 dragonath

The only way to makes sense of Benjamin Franklin calling Germans "swarthy" and implying English (and red Indians) have a better skin complexion than the darker Germans is to see that being "white" is more of a socio-economic element in America.

For example, Irish, as white as i can tell, were portrayed as apes by the racist cartoons of that era, no different then how blacks were portrayed.

"He portrayed the Irish as drunken apes, and the image still remains today."
The New Jersey Ancient Order of Hibernians opposes inclusion of Thomas Nast — the great 19th century political cartoonist — in the New Jersey Hall of Fame.

also:

The illustration (below) ran in Harper’s Weekly magazine. Notice how the Irish are depicted as more similar to “Negros” than to “Anglo Teutonic” individuals, and both the Irish and Africans are caricatured as ape-like.

[Link: obituarytypo.blogspot.com...]

13 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 2:44:57pm

This of course ignores great plains and western states like Kansas and Montana that were never part of the South.

14 dragonath  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 2:56:56pm

re: #12 Destro

I'm not sure about that, after all there were current of very real provincialism and bigotry floating around in those days. The Plattdeutsch were very much a people apart in those days (also, see the Fries Rebellion).

I'd like to think that if he were around today, Franklin would have could come around on this issue they same way he did regarding universal suffrage. Anthropology has come a long way.

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 11, 2012 6:11:17pm

My Grandfather and other german anecestors were definitely "swarthy". Grandfather more than most. Dark hair, dark skin and bright blue eyes. His handsome feature even show thru in black and white photos of the day. In his WWI uniform, very nice!

I can see what Grandmother saw in him!

teehee

I didn't ge those genes. I burn in the shade.


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